Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
7 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
On 1/30/11 12:00 PM, "bart deruyter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I looked through the tuxguitar fret diagrams, and found this the most
> interesting C#dim chordshape (I'm copying now from my own, extremely
> incomplete predefined-guitar-fretboards-fix.ly
> <http://predefined-guitar-fretboards-fix.ly>  file :
>
> \addChordShape #'c:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
> \storePredefinedDiagram #default-fret-table \chordmode {cis:dim}
>                         #guitar-tuning
>                         #(offset-fret 1 (chord-shape 'c:dim guitar-tuning))
>
> for D#dim I first wanted to offset :
> \addChordShape #'d:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;0;1-2;3-4;1-3;" one fret higher,
> but then the fingering of the first fret on the D-string doesn't show, so I
> created another chordshape :
> \addChordShape #'dis:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;1-1;2-2;4-4;2-3;"
>
> Perhaps it can be offsetted with an aditional fingering notation in the
> diagram but my knowledge of lilypond still is somewhat limited, and right now
> I don't have the time to browse through the documentation for it. Got a book
> to write and at the moment I just have to modify the diagrams I need at the
> moment.
>

As I got ready to implement this in the LilyPond distribution, it occurred
to me that this solves your problem, but not necessarily the fundamental
problem.

The fundamental problem right now is that the current diagrams have only a
dim chord, which might be either a dim7 or a dim5 chord (and since I entered
them, I can say with a surety that I don't know which chords are which).  In
my opinion it's clear that we should have both :dim and :dim7 chords in the
predefined diagram.

I'll be happy to take the responsibility of getting them in properly, but
I'd someone more qualified than me to give me the terse-format diagram
strings with fingering, based on the standard guitar tuning.

So, anybody willing to fill in the following table?

c:dim    "x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
cis:dim    "x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
d:dim
d:dim7     "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
dis:dim    "2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
dis:dim7    "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
e:dim
e:dim7    offset dis:dim7 one fret
f:dim
f:dim7    "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
fis:dim
fis:dim7    same as dis:dim7
g:dim
g:dim7    "x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
gis:dim
gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
a:dim
a:dim7     same as ees:dim7
ais:dim
ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
b:dim
b:dim7     same as d:dim7


Thanks,

Carl



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
On 2/2/11 11:10 AM, "Ronald Hochreiter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Carl, Bart, David,
>
> don't know if my input is of any use, however - without fingering:
>
> Ddim xx0131
> Edim 0120x0
>
> Starting from the Fdim it get's a bit more complicated in standard
> tuning, see e.g. Fdim, where you'd have three possibilities:
>
> a) 1231xx or 1231x1

This is just Edim above up one fret, right?
This could be useful for higher chords:

f:dim     1231x1
fis:dim   2342x2
g:dim     3453x3
gis:dim   4564x4
a:dim     5675x5
bes:dim   6786x6
b:dim     7897x7


> b) xx6464 or 4x6464

This fingering for the Fdim seems to be a very versatile fingering that I'd
expect to see used a lot.  I know that I'd personaly like it, because it's
relatively easy and consistent:

cis:dim   xx2020
d:dim     xx3131
ees:dim   xx4242
e:dim     xx5353
f:dim     xx6464


> c) x89A9x (A = 10)

This one is also useful

a:dim   x0121x
bes:dim x1232x
b:dim   x2343x
c:dim   x3454x
cis:dim x4565x
d:dim   x5676x
ees:dim x6787x
e:dim  x7898x
f:dim  x89a9x

This gives lots of opportunities for the table below.

I tend to favor diagrams with low fret numbers and muted strings at either
the top or the bottom, rather than in the middle.

Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Carl

>>
>> c:dim    "x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
>> c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>> cis:dim    "x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
>> cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
>> d:dim
>> d:dim7     "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>> dis:dim    "2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
>> dis:dim7    "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>> e:dim
>> e:dim7    offset dis:dim7 one fret
>> f:dim
>> f:dim7    "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>> fis:dim
>> fis:dim7    same as dis:dim7
>> g:dim
>> g:dim7    "x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
>> gis:dim
>> gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
>> a:dim
>> a:dim7     same as ees:dim7
>> ais:dim
>> ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
>> b:dim
>> b:dim7     same as d:dim7
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Marc Hohl
Am 03.02.2011 05:36, schrieb Carl Sorensen:

> [...]
>> a) 1231xx or 1231x1
> This is just Edim above up one fret, right?
> This could be useful for higher chords:
>
> f:dim     1231x1
> fis:dim   2342x2
> g:dim     3453x3
> gis:dim   4564x4
> a:dim     5675x5
> bes:dim   6786x6
> b:dim     7897x7
>
>
>> b) xx6464 or 4x6464
> This fingering for the Fdim seems to be a very versatile fingering that I'd
> expect to see used a lot.  I know that I'd personaly like it, because it's
> relatively easy and consistent:
>
> cis:dim   xx2020
> d:dim     xx3131
> ees:dim   xx4242
> e:dim     xx5353
> f:dim     xx6464
>
>
>> c) x89A9x (A = 10)
> This one is also useful
>
> a:dim   x0121x
> bes:dim x1232x
> b:dim   x2343x
> c:dim   x3454x
> cis:dim x4565x
> d:dim   x5676x
> ees:dim x6787x
> e:dim  x7898x
> f:dim  x89a9x
>
> This gives lots of opportunities for the table below.
>
> I tend to favor diagrams with low fret numbers and muted strings at either
> the top or the bottom, rather than in the middle.
Hello Carl, hello guitarists out there ;-)

sorry for joining so late in this discussion - I think that the voicings
b) and c)
are very useful and sound good, whereas these mentioned in a) are way too
complicated to use, and if you use the short form with the lowest four
strings,
they do not sound convincing.

Since I mostly have to use a dim7, I am not sure which voicing would be
more universal, though.

Regards,

Marc

> Any recommendations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
>
>>> c:dim    "x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
>>> c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>>> cis:dim    "x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
>>> cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
>>> d:dim
>>> d:dim7     "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>>> dis:dim    "2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
>>> dis:dim7    "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>>> e:dim
>>> e:dim7    offset dis:dim7 one fret
>>> f:dim
>>> f:dim7    "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>>> fis:dim
>>> fis:dim7    same as dis:dim7
>>> g:dim
>>> g:dim7    "x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
>>> gis:dim
>>> gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
>>> a:dim
>>> a:dim7     same as ees:dim7
>>> ais:dim
>>> ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
>>> b:dim
>>> b:dim7     same as d:dim7
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.

Please comment.

Thanks,

Carl


display-dim-fretboards.pdf (174K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
In reply to this post by Marc Hohl
I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.

You can download it at

<https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a
ttredirects=0&d=1>

or view it at

<https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf>

Please comment.

Thanks,

Carl


display-dim-fretboards.pdf (174K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
In reply to this post by Carl Sorensen
Tim McNamara <timmcn <at> bitstream.net> writes:
>
> There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim
fingerings that is not in the score.  IME
> the fingering should match the score in cases where there is a score.

To make the fingering match the score, just don't use the predefined
diagrams.  Then the fretboard calculator will try to automatically calculate
a fingering.   For the dim chords, it generally works.  For the dim7, it
fails most of the time.

This is accomplished by using the commands \predefinedFretboardsOff

But it's very seldom that a guitar chord is voiced like a standard chord is
written in the score.

> The dim chord is a triad so the
> fingering should contain only those three notes with none of them doubled; the
dim7 is a tetrad and the
> fingerings correctly contain those four notes.
>
> This may be overly pedantic.

I don't think it's overly pedantic; I think it's a misunderstanding of why
the example was created the way it was.  The notes in the score would
virtually *never* be the notes in the fretboard in standard usage.

In this demonstration, the score was put there just to indicate what was
meant by a dim and a dim7, since there is some evidence that jazz players
consider a dim on a lead sheet to imply a dim7.

There is an open issue, #1497 on the tracker, to have staff notation reflect
the predefined fretboard voicing if desired.

Thanks,

Carl



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

Carl Sorensen
In reply to this post by Carl Sorensen
On 2/8/11 5:11 AM, "jakob lund" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/2/6 Carl Sorensen <[hidden email]>:
>> I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
>>
>> You can download it at
>>
>> <https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a
>> ttredirects=0&d=1>
>
> There's an error in there, the G dim doesn't have a G in it (it should
> be the same as Gb dim shifted up a fret)

As I look at it, the G dim *is* the Gb dim shifted up a fret.  Gb dim on the
fifth fret, G dim on the sixth fret, and the notes of the G dim are Bb (4th
string), Db (3rd string), G (2nd string), and Bb (1st string).

The G dim7 isn't the Gb dim7 shifted up a fret, so maybe that's what you're
wondering about.  The notes on the Gb dim 7 are G Db Fb G, so it appears to
be missing a Bb, not a G.  So I think it's an error, and I'll fix it.

Thanks,

Carl