Re: Ancient tablatures

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Re: Ancient tablatures

Valentin Villenave
Administrator
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Trevor Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello, would this kind of ancient tablatures very difficult to do?
>>
>> http://www.mateus-lutes.com/tablature/
>
> I don't know, but it is very beautiful, isn't it!

Yes indeed. I'm CCing the tablatures list, and perhaps we could
consider a feature request in the tracker at some point?

> It is Baroque Lute TAB (in the French, German,
> English style).
>
> My lute contact (step-son) tells me it's
> typeset using Fronimo:
>
> http://www.theaterofmusic.com/fronimo/
> (windows only, I'm afraid)
>
> For interest, he also says how to read it:
>
> The symbols above the staff are the note
> values, minim, crochet etc..., the letters
> on the strings are fret numbers (the sequence
> from a - open string - is:
> a, b, r , d, e, f, g, h, j, k, l, m).
>
> The comma after a letter indicates decoration
> (different depending on the composer).
>
> The dots, single & double indicate the finger
> on the right hand that plucks the string.
>
> The staff indicates the first 6 strings and
> the basses are indicated below the staff as
> follows in descending order: a a/ a// a/// 4 5 6
>
> There's a lot more information and another
> lute tab typesetter at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/AboutTab.html
>
> Trevor


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Re: Ancient tablatures

Valentin Villenave
Administrator
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Francisco Vila <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thank you, Trevor and Valentin.

You're welcome,
added as http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=865
with an initial bounty.

> As you possibly imagine, this goes
> about converting to LilyPond to a Finale+Fromino user, a guitar
> professor colleague of mine. He lost his purchased Fromino
> installation after one of his routine HDF+WR

Well, he can always use modern tablatures for now, and as soon as we
get this feature implemented he'll be able to benefit from it :)

Cheers,
Valentin


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Re: Ancient tablatures

Marc Hohl
In reply to this post by Valentin Villenave
Laura Conrad schrieb:
>
>
> Someone should look at the fonts in abctab2ps,
> <http://www.lautengesellschaft.de/cdmm/>, which I would expect to be
> licensed under a free license, and to include most of what lilypond
> would need.
>  
A short look at these fonts discovers that some glyphs are just chosen from
other fonts (Times, StringWalker Borrono, and Courier) and all other
elements
are just postscript drawings, so it should be possible to adapt this
accordingly
(or as an alternative redraw from scratch).

I am not at all familiar with these old tablatures, but they look just
amazing,
so simply for typographic and aesthetical reasons, these should be made
possible
with lilypond. I have some literature about old lute tablatures, so when
I find the time,
I will have a deeper look...

Marc
>
>  



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Re: Re: Ancient tablatures

Valentin Villenave
Administrator
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Marc Hohl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am not at all familiar with these old tablatures, but they look just
> amazing,
> so simply for typographic and aesthetical reasons, these should be made
> possible
> with lilypond.

I agree -- which is why I added a bounty though I don't play the
guitar, or the lute, or any ancient music at all :-)

Cheers,
Valentin


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Re: Ancient tablatures

Marc Hohl
In reply to this post by Marc Hohl
Laura Conrad schrieb:

>>>>>> "Marc" == Marc Hohl <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>>>            
>
>     Marc> I am not at all familiar with these old tablatures, but they
>     Marc> look just amazing, so simply for typographic and aesthetical
>     Marc> reasons, these should be made possible with lilypond.
>
> Actually, there are good musical reasons, too.  In the 16th and maybe
> most of the 17th, and in some places longer than that, the
> dominant instrument which could play many notes at a time was the
> lute, or various other plucked string instruments which could read the
> same tablature.
>  
I assumed that these tablatures are still used, but in fact I did see them,
but never had to /decrypt/ them for myself.

> So this means that lots of the kinds of music which would later be
> published with keyboard accompaniment, which lilypond transcribes very
> well, was published with lute tablature.
>
> So my edition of all the part songs of John Dowland
> <http://serpentpublications.org/wordpress/?page_id=22&id=4> (which
> many people think of as lute songs, but most of them are really
> accompanied madrigals) is really incomplete, because I've
> only transcribed the vocal lines, and in general not the lute
> tablature.
>
> For a lot of them, the lute tablature is very little different from
> just a transcription of the vocal lines, but in others there's a lot
> of decoration.  
>
> I've made some efforts to transcribe the tablature, but what I want
> ideally is to transcribe what's there, in an input form that doesnt'
> require me to translate the tablature into notes, and then use that
> transcription plus the tuning of the strings to produce both a
> tablature that looks like the one in the facsimile and standard
> notation that a modern keyboard player could deal with.
>  
That's an interesting point - I think Dana Emery posted to the
users list that writing tablature as normal notation and letting lilypond
do the translation into tablature is at least not always the best way.

For me, it is most of the time, but I can think of situations where
Iit may not, and the lute tablatures are a great example where the coding
should work "the other way 'round".
> Lute players should note that I'm aware that tablature has different
> information from notation: specifically that the beginning time of the
> note is specified, but not the length of the note.  However, I believe
> that good keyboard players are just as capable as lute players of
> making the decision about where to end the note; they just aren't as
> capable as players of 6-course fretted instruments of playing
> tablature for 6-course fretted instruments.
>  
Hm, then let's try to nail it down: how would you like to input
tablature? As I can see in the literature I have about lute music,
getting lilypond to produce the desired output is possible (yes, it will
be a lot of work, but ... ) But I find the input structure more
interesting, because even a new kind of input format can probably be
provided by lilypond (don't speak about the time to implement that),
or we can use some converters which translate the lute tablature
into lilypond syntax, which again translates this into a nicely
formatted tablature.

Marc



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Re: Re: Ancient tablatures

Carl Sorensen



On 10/6/09 12:22 PM, "Marc Hohl" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Laura Conrad schrieb:
>>>>>>> "Marc" == Marc Hohl <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>>>>            
>>
>>     Marc> I am not at all familiar with these old tablatures, but they
>>     Marc> look just amazing, so simply for typographic and aesthetical
>>     Marc> reasons, these should be made possible with lilypond.
>>
>> Actually, there are good musical reasons, too.  In the 16th and maybe
>> most of the 17th, and in some places longer than that, the
>> dominant instrument which could play many notes at a time was the
>> lute, or various other plucked string instruments which could read the
>> same tablature.
>>  
> I assumed that these tablatures are still used, but in fact I did see them,
> but never had to /decrypt/ them for myself.
>> So this means that lots of the kinds of music which would later be
>> published with keyboard accompaniment, which lilypond transcribes very
>> well, was published with lute tablature.
>>
>> So my edition of all the part songs of John Dowland
>> <http://serpentpublications.org/wordpress/?page_id=22=4
>> <http://serpentpublications.org/wordpress/?page_id=22&id=4> > (which
>> many people think of as lute songs, but most of them are really
>> accompanied madrigals) is really incomplete, because I've
>> only transcribed the vocal lines, and in general not the lute
>> tablature.
>>
>> For a lot of them, the lute tablature is very little different from
>> just a transcription of the vocal lines, but in others there's a lot
>> of decoration.
>>
>> I've made some efforts to transcribe the tablature, but what I want
>> ideally is to transcribe what's there, in an input form that doesnt'
>> require me to translate the tablature into notes, and then use that
>> transcription plus the tuning of the strings to produce both a
>> tablature that looks like the one in the facsimile and standard
>> notation that a modern keyboard player could deal with.
>>  
> That's an interesting point - I think Dana Emery posted to the
> users list that writing tablature as normal notation and letting lilypond
> do the translation into tablature is at least not always the best way.
>
> For me, it is most of the time, but I can think of situations where
> Iit may not, and the lute tablatures are a great example where the coding
> should work "the other way 'round".
>> Lute players should note that I'm aware that tablature has different
>> information from notation: specifically that the beginning time of the
>> note is specified, but not the length of the note.  However, I believe
>> that good keyboard players are just as capable as lute players of
>> making the decision about where to end the note; they just aren't as
>> capable as players of 6-course fretted instruments of playing
>> tablature for 6-course fretted instruments.
>>  
> Hm, then let's try to nail it down: how would you like to input
> tablature? As I can see in the literature I have about lute music,
> getting lilypond to produce the desired output is possible (yes, it will
> be a lot of work, but ... ) But I find the input structure more
> interesting, because even a new kind of input format can probably be
> provided by lilypond (don't speak about the time to implement that),
> or we can use some converters which translate the lute tablature
> into lilypond syntax, which again translates this into a nicely
> formatted tablature.

You're free to start with the input if you like, but I think the best
approach is to start with the output.  Ultimately, to work in the LilyPond
framework, there are going to have to be events.  It's possible that the
events may be lute-tab-note events, but that doesn't seem likely to me.  I
expect that they will be note events, evaluated in a lute-tab-voice context.

There could be a lute-mode developed for input, but I wouldn't start there.

If you start with the output, based on given LilyPond structures, you can
create useful lute tablatures with the current input.  Then, either the user
can use the non-optimal input, or a simple translator can be developed that
takes the optimal input and converts it to valid LilyPond input.  Such an
easy converter wouldn't needed to be integrated with LilyPond and might be
an easy way to get a prototype mode working.

The output seems to me to be quite consistent with the LilyPond
infrastructure.  There are note indications placed on a staff, along with
some fingering indications as well.  There are aslo some marks placed over
the staff that depend on the duration of the note, IIUC.  And there are some
marks placed under the staff.  All of these capabilities are in the current
LilyPond output set.  So getting the output mode to work should be
relatively straightforward.

If you start with the input mode, then until both the input mode and the
output mode are fixed, there's no possibility of getting such a tablature.

If you look at the history of fret diagrams, you'll see that fret diagrams
as markups were instituted a long time (I think about 6 years, IIRC) before
fret diagrams as output from chordmode input.  That's 6 years of useful
output that would be unavailable if I had started with the input (my natural
tendency) instead of starting with the output (Han-Wen's recommendation).

Again, I'm not a boss here, laying down the law of how somebody needs to
implement lute tablature.  I'm giving my experience (and passing along
Han-Wen's recommendation) of the quickest way to get a new feature into the
output.

HTH,

Carl



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Re: Re: Ancient tablatures

Marc Hohl
Carl Sorensen schrieb:

>
> On 10/6/09 12:22 PM, "Marc Hohl" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> Laura Conrad schrieb:
>>    
>>>>>>>> "Marc" == Marc Hohl <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>>>                
>>>     Marc> I am not at all familiar with these old tablatures, but they
>>>     Marc> look just amazing, so simply for typographic and aesthetical
>>>     Marc> reasons, these should be made possible with lilypond.
>>>
>>> Actually, there are good musical reasons, too.  In the 16th and maybe
>>> most of the 17th, and in some places longer than that, the
>>> dominant instrument which could play many notes at a time was the
>>> lute, or various other plucked string instruments which could read the
>>> same tablature.
>>>  
>>>      
>> I assumed that these tablatures are still used, but in fact I did see them,
>> but never had to /decrypt/ them for myself.
>>    
>>> So this means that lots of the kinds of music which would later be
>>> published with keyboard accompaniment, which lilypond transcribes very
>>> well, was published with lute tablature.
>>>
>>> So my edition of all the part songs of John Dowland
>>> <http://serpentpublications.org/wordpress/?page_id=22=4
>>> <http://serpentpublications.org/wordpress/?page_id=22&id=4> > (which
>>> many people think of as lute songs, but most of them are really
>>> accompanied madrigals) is really incomplete, because I've
>>> only transcribed the vocal lines, and in general not the lute
>>> tablature.
>>>
>>> For a lot of them, the lute tablature is very little different from
>>> just a transcription of the vocal lines, but in others there's a lot
>>> of decoration.
>>>
>>> I've made some efforts to transcribe the tablature, but what I want
>>> ideally is to transcribe what's there, in an input form that doesnt'
>>> require me to translate the tablature into notes, and then use that
>>> transcription plus the tuning of the strings to produce both a
>>> tablature that looks like the one in the facsimile and standard
>>> notation that a modern keyboard player could deal with.
>>>  
>>>      
>> That's an interesting point - I think Dana Emery posted to the
>> users list that writing tablature as normal notation and letting lilypond
>> do the translation into tablature is at least not always the best way.
>>
>> For me, it is most of the time, but I can think of situations where
>> Iit may not, and the lute tablatures are a great example where the coding
>> should work "the other way 'round".
>>    
>>> Lute players should note that I'm aware that tablature has different
>>> information from notation: specifically that the beginning time of the
>>> note is specified, but not the length of the note.  However, I believe
>>> that good keyboard players are just as capable as lute players of
>>> making the decision about where to end the note; they just aren't as
>>> capable as players of 6-course fretted instruments of playing
>>> tablature for 6-course fretted instruments.
>>>  
>>>      
>> Hm, then let's try to nail it down: how would you like to input
>> tablature? As I can see in the literature I have about lute music,
>> getting lilypond to produce the desired output is possible (yes, it will
>> be a lot of work, but ... ) But I find the input structure more
>> interesting, because even a new kind of input format can probably be
>> provided by lilypond (don't speak about the time to implement that),
>> or we can use some converters which translate the lute tablature
>> into lilypond syntax, which again translates this into a nicely
>> formatted tablature.
>>    
>
> You're free to start with the input if you like, but I think the best
> approach is to start with the output.  Ultimately, to work in the LilyPond
> framework, there are going to have to be events.  It's possible that the
> events may be lute-tab-note events, but that doesn't seem likely to me.  I
> expect that they will be note events, evaluated in a lute-tab-voice context.
>
> There could be a lute-mode developed for input, but I wouldn't start there.
>
> If you start with the output, based on given LilyPond structures, you can
> create useful lute tablatures with the current input.  Then, either the user
> can use the non-optimal input, or a simple translator can be developed that
> takes the optimal input and converts it to valid LilyPond input.  Such an
> easy converter wouldn't needed to be integrated with LilyPond and might be
> an easy way to get a prototype mode working.
>
> The output seems to me to be quite consistent with the LilyPond
> infrastructure.  There are note indications placed on a staff, along with
> some fingering indications as well.  There are aslo some marks placed over
> the staff that depend on the duration of the note, IIUC.  And there are some
> marks placed under the staff.  All of these capabilities are in the current
> LilyPond output set.  So getting the output mode to work should be
> relatively straightforward.
>
> If you start with the input mode, then until both the input mode and the
> output mode are fixed, there's no possibility of getting such a tablature.
>
> If you look at the history of fret diagrams, you'll see that fret diagrams
> as markups were instituted a long time (I think about 6 years, IIRC) before
> fret diagrams as output from chordmode input.  That's 6 years of useful
> output that would be unavailable if I had started with the input (my natural
> tendency) instead of starting with the output (Han-Wen's recommendation).
>
> Again, I'm not a boss here, laying down the law of how somebody needs to
> implement lute tablature.  I'm giving my experience (and passing along
> Han-Wen's recommendation) of the quickest way to get a new feature into the
> output.
>  
Hello Carl,

I was somehow expecting that you would object to my provocative question.

I never intended to start with the new input mode, although it would be
helpful to have at least an idea of how it would look like (kind of a
"holistic" approach).

No, my intention was the simple fact that I (stimulated through Dana Emerys
proposals in the archives) started to think about an alternative way of
coding tablature
(in terms of an input structure). At first glance, it seemed simple, but
it isn't.
The most satisfying solution that I've come across is probably some kind
of a
two-dimensional structure, but there are still unsolved issues
concerning the length
of the notes etc. So my motivation was simply curiosity - perhaps
someone has digged deeper
and has already developed a input structure perfectly adapted to tablature.

So in conclusion, I fully agree with you, when such a task is started,
there should be to focus
on the output, and this is a goal that seems to be reachable within a
decent amount of time.

Marc

> HTH,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> lilypond-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>  



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